*copyrighted image completely unrelated to this article and definitely used without permission removed*

Righto. So let's begin the skeptical deconstruction, shall we?
Mind you, I'm not a structural engineer.


The Collapse: An Engineer's Perspective


This piece by "professor" Eagar and student Musso has to be some sort of record for the greatest number of lies, and points of misdirection, ever strung together in an "engineering" article. Comment is highlighted in red.


Hold on there scooter. Let's first establish who we're slandering shall we?
Eagar in question is MIT professor of Materials Engineering and Materials Systems, Thomas W. Eagar, Sc.D. P.E. .
MIT being The Massachusettes Institute of Technology.
The set of letters proceeding his name stand for Science Doctorate, Physical Engineering (what you think all Doctorates are in Philosophy?) I note that his resume states that he recieved his degree in 1975, while serving as a research engineer for Bethlehem Steel Corporation. He also holds numerous awards for Metallurgy, welding and engineering.

Although there's not quite as much information provided for Mr. Christopher Musso, one can easily presume that he is Dr. Eagar's principle assistant, since that's what Deans have.

You, on the other hand, don't even sign your name.

Hmm... yeah.. I can see where there might be a veracity issue involved.

It wasn't until Dr. Thomas Eagar saw Building 7 of the World Trade Center implode late on the afternoon of September 11th that he understood what had transpired structurally earlier that day as the Twin Towers disintegrated. A professor of materials engineering and engineering systems at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Eagar went on to write an influential paper in the journal of the Minerals, Metals, and Materials Society entitled "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation" (JOM, December 2001). In this interview, Eagar explains the structural failure, what can be done within existing skyscrapers to improve safety, and what he believes the most likely terrorist targets of the future may be.



Above, is an animated graphic of the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7. This is clearly a controlled demolition.


No, it's a structural failure. As was recently displayed in Atlantic city, those sorts of things can happen for any number of reasons.

I guess that Eagar realized this too, and concluded that the twin towers were also deliberately demolished. This is probably what he meant when he said that seeing Building 7 implode lead him to understand what had transpired structurally earlier that day as the Twin Towers disintegrated. However, he is not allowed to tell you this. So he produces this piece of misinformation to mislead you. Immediately above is a graphic of the initial north tower collapse. As you can see, Eagar is correct, both collapses are remarkably similar. Click the following for further information:


Pardon me? I actually read the article in question. He states no such thing. In fact he clearly outlines the general points of confusion regarding the structural failure.

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/print.php?id=56715
http://victoria.indymedia.org/print.php?id=11467


Uhm, not to burst your bubble any more than absolutely neccessary, but if anything those images actually support Dr. Eagars statement. Lemme try to explain this as clearly as I can.

First off, go inside a building sometime. Or even look around your own home. You'll notice that there are actually two types of walls, ones called Load Bearing (where they actually support the weight of structures above) and non-load bearing. One way to determine which is what is by studying the blueprints of the building (another is to simply chainsaw your way through a few and see what happens).

In a skyscraper, the loadbearing walls are actually just pillars, arranged according to a principle that pretty much works out to be put pillar where ceiling would start to buckle. We'll also ignore the central core supportive structure, for now just assume it's one really, really big pillar. One other thing to note is that the outer skin didn't look like that just for style. Each one of those external ribs were support beams that went the length of the building. If you doubt me, just look at some of the wreckage pictures which featured huge sections of the external skin sticking out of the carnage. Those external sections weren't just ten or twenty feet tall, they were forty to sixty feet tall. (Kinda puts things to scale don't it?)

As Dr. Eagar points out, the building was amazingly redundant.

Now, as to where I'm going with this.

The World Trade Center wasn't exactly a cube farm. The floors weren't open. In fact they were sectioned off into lots of little high price executive offices. When the floor above collapsed, these were crushed, squirting the contents of the rooms out along the paths of least resistance. Since the interior of the building was rapidly filling up with things like concrete, steel, burning office furniture, glass and other whatnot, and the windows were not, they gave way. shooting out streams of smoke and fire.



Caption: Animation of a floor truss in the World Trade Center giving way.


Eagar claims that the collapse of the twin towers was primarily due to failure of certain structural components (pictured in the animated graphic above) used to support sections of the concrete floor slabs. He refers to them as trusses. However, the word truss generally refers to the diagonal reinforcement of a rectangular frame, and so can be applied to a wide variety of structures. The items in question, are more correctly called "open web joists" or "bar joists".


It also refers to ladies undergarments or hernia belts. You're point being?

Sorry but being a language nerd just isn't going to help you win this argument. Particularly when the dictionary doesn't even help support your argument.

Eagar supposes, contrary to all evidence, that the fires at the World Trade Center on September 11 were so incredibly hot that the trusses softened and failed as indicated in the animated graphic.


Ah, now I understand. You actually didn't read the article at all, did you?

Allow me to quote from the article in question:

Part of the problem is that people (including engineers) often confuse temperature and heat. While they are related, they are not the same. Thermodynamically, the heat contained in a material is related to the temperature through the heat capacity and the density (or mass). Temperature is defined as an intensive property, meaning that it does not vary with the quantity of material, while the heat is an extensive property, which does vary with the amount of material. One way to distinguish the two is to note that if a second log is added to the fireplace, the temperature does not double; it stays roughly the same, but the size of the fire or the length of time the fire burns, or a combination of the two, doubles. Thus, the fact that there were 90,000 L of jet fuel on a few floors of the WTC does not mean that this was an unusually hot fire. The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual, and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel.
Don't really sound like he's beating the raging furnace drum to me.

It is of utmost importance to his theory, that the fires were considerably hotter than your average office fire, as your average office fire was (by law) considered and planned for by the building designers and, of course, they designed a structure that would not collapse in such a fire.


Uhm. no. Actually he goes to great length to point out that this was a pretty normal fire. Granted there were a few extenuating circumstances involved in this particular office fire, things like the fact that there were 90,000 L of jet fuel and that it was significantly more widespread than your standard wastecan fire. Remember that previous discussion about "non-loadbearing walls"? These aren't the thickest suckers imaginable, particularly when you're building on a budget. Plus Jet fuel being a highly evaporative liquid, tends to do things like flow all over the place. Of course since the primary goal of fuel is to burn, it also tends to set stuff on fire or be subject to combustion from things like electrical shorts or sparks.

On February 23 1975, their design was put to the test. For on that day an intense fire broke out on the 11th floor of the north tower of the World Trade Center. The fire subsequently spread down to the 9th and up to the 19th floor, but this fire did not cause failure of the trusses (or any other major structural feature). Here is a quote from a news report:

"The fire department on arrival (at the World Trade Center) found a very intense fire. There were 125 firemen involved in fighting this fire and 28 sustained injuries from the intense heat and smoke. The cause of the fire is unknown."

Hmm. didn't know that Tower Two opened in 1975.
As for the 1975 fire, I'd note that at least one article(pdf) actually sites that there was structural buckling from that fire, but also notes that the building was able to survive because of the fact that all of the redundant support structures were not damaged. Had the fire been caused in such a manner as to weaken the interior support beams and external support skin, I'm betting that WTC 2 would not have been opened that year.

A fatal flaw in Eagar's theory, is that the tops of the trusses were embedded in the concrete slab, so even if a truss was heated to the point of failure, even if it was dripping molten steel, the concrete slab would still hold the truss up and it could not possibly fall as indicated in the animation. If one truss failed, its load was redistributed to the concrete slab and all the remaining trusses associated with that slab. So the failure of one, or even many trusses, does not lead to overall failure. There is absolutely no way that the trusses could collapse one after the other, as claimed by Eagar. Here is a quote from (a section on the WTC in) Multi-Storey Buildings in Steel [1], by Godfrey

"Composite action between the concrete and the steelwork is ensured by extending the diagonal web members of the joists (trusses) through the steel decking and embedding them in the (concrete) slab."





Ho-kay... so let's talk a minute about the concept of "shearing point".

Shearing occurs when overt lateral stresses are placed on any given object which overcome the crystaline or molecular structure, in effect cutting the object. To see a very small scale version of this go get a pair of of sissors and a piece of paper.

In the example under discussion, it's already stated that steel begins to structurally weaken when the temperature of the metal exceeds a given limit. Actually let me again quote from Dr. Edgar's article:
It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C.4 This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650°C fire.

The additional problem was distortion of the steel in the fire. The temperature of the fire was not uniform everywhere, and the temperature on the outside of the box columns was clearly lower than on the side facing the fire. The temperature along the 18 m long joists was certainly not uniform. Given the thermal expansion of steel, a 150°C temperature difference from one location to another will produce yield-level residual stresses. This produced distortions in the slender structural steel, which resulted in buckling failures. Thus, the failure of the steel was due to two factors: loss of strength due to the temperature of the fire, and loss of structural integrity due to distortion of the steel from the non-uniform temperatures in the fire.


Heh, there he is again, noting that the fire alone wasn't responsible for inducing the structural failure. You really ought to avoid using that argument (what with your opponent agreeing with you and all).

The thing to note here is that he's pointing out that the fire wasn't even, and that, combined with the physically weakened structures undergoing pretty serious unbalanced thermal expansion, were what were responsible.

Thus my whole "Big Things don't act like Little Things" point.

Above is a photo of a number of 45 feet (13.5m) long trusses and a buckled steel column after the Broadgate Phase 8 fire (the WTC towers had 35 and 60 foot trusses). The fire occurred while the 14-story high-rise was under construction. Little of the steel was fire protected and the sprinkler system and other active measures were not yet operational. Even though a number of trusses and columns buckled, due to thermal expansion, no collapse was observed at Broadgate.


The system of design of the World Trade Center Towers is called tubular framing, since the perimeter frames of the building are designed to act as a cantilevered tube in resisting lateral forces. This design concept (the so-called tube within a tube architecture) has been employed in the construction of many of the world's tallest buildings. These include the John Hancock Center (1105 ft), the Standard Oil of Indiana Building (1125 ft) and the Sears Tower (1450 ft). In fact, it is the standard design for tall buildings. Vital to the structural integrity of these buildings are the composite floor slabs. In fact, if the floors were not composite, the buildings would eventually collapse.

Eagar totally ignores the fact that the floor slabs were composite (that is, studs or projections from the steel beams were embedded in the concrete slab) preferring to believe the fiction that the floors just rested upon the beams supporting them.



No, he points out that stuff got broke what from having an airplane whack it, and that the floor effectively twisted itself free from uneven heating.

NOVA: After the planes struck and you saw those raging fires, did you think the towers would collapse?

Eagar: No. In fact, I was surprised. So were most structural engineers. The only people I know who weren't surprised were a few people who've designed high-rise buildings.

This second statement will only be true because designers of high-rise buildings would know for certain that the buildings were deliberately demolished and would consequently, "not be surprised."



You know, I'm also betting that Dr. Eagar has no idea why I get this weird pain in my right arm.

He's a metallurgist, not an architect.

Also, I love your comment about the buildings being deliberately demolished. Uhm, duh? Do you think that's maybe why they flew a couple of planes into them, sport?

NOVA: But you weren't surprised that they withstood the initial impacts, is that correct?

Eagar: That's right. All buildings and most bridges have what we call redundant design. If one component breaks, the whole thing will not come crashing down. I once worked on a high-rise in New York, for example, that had a nine-foot-high beam that had a crack all the way through one of the main beams in the basement. This was along the approach to the George Washington Bridge. They shored it up and kept traffic from using that area. Some people were concerned the building would fall down. The structural engineers knew it wouldn't, because the whole thing had an egg-crate-like construction. Or you can think of it as a net. If you lose one string on a net, yes, the net is weakened but the rest of the net still works.



Caption: Earlier skyscrapers (top) had columns spaced evenly across every floor. The World Trade Center (bottom) broke with tradition by having columns only in the central core and along the exterior walls.

That's essentially how the World Trade Center absorbed an airplane coming into it. It was somewhat like the way a net absorbs a baseball being thrown against it.

This is deliberate misdirection. It would be more accurate to say that the towers absorbed the impact of the planes as a sheet of glass absorbs the impact of a bullet. Note that a baseball does more damage to a window than a bullet (even if we arrange that both have the exactly the same momentum). As we all know, the bullet will make a neat little bullet hole while a baseball will smash most of the glass out.



Actually, depending on velocity, calibur, width of glass, either would happen. This is why places like Tiffanys use really thick (as in several inches thick) tempered glass. Remember the outerskin had ribs. Hundreds of them. each one was supporting weight on the outside. (Crimany, didn't you see a single one of the pictures of the aftermath?) The building could easily absorb the impact of the plane because there were several thousand more columns to carry the weight. The problem came because of the fire, thermal buckling, shear, etc. etc....

It is the speed (and shape) of the projectile that determines whether the impact damage is localized or spread across a large area. The faster the projectile, the more localized the damage. Other common examples illustrating this effect are, the driving of a nail through a piece of wood, and the firing a bullet through a fencepost. Both are done at speed and thus do only local damage. In both of these examples, the wood just a centimeter or two from the impact point, is essentially undamaged. Similarly, the aircraft impacts were at great speed and severe damage localized to a few floors.




Yeppers. that's also the reason that the buildings stood for (as you note) up to 90 minutes. Just having a plane whack into them wasn't the problem.

If you lose a couple of the columns, that's not the end of the world. It will still stand up.

NOVA: The World Trade Center was also designed to take a major wind load hitting from the side.

Eagar: Yes. A skyscraper is a long, thin, vertical structure, but if you turned it sideways, it would be like a diving board, and you could bend it on the end. The wind load is trying to bend it like a diving board. It sways back and forth. If you've been on the top of the Sears Tower in Chicago or the Empire State Building on a windy day, you can actually feel it. When I was a student, I visited the observation deck of the Sears Tower, and I went into the restroom there, and I could see the water sloshing in the toilet bowl, because the wind load was causing the whole building to wave in the breeze.


Hey, why don't you write that little bit down. I have a feeling you may need to refer to it.

NOVA: Are skyscrapers designed that way, to be a little flexible?

Eagar: Absolutely. Now, there are different ways to design things. For example, Boeing designs their aircraft wings to flap in the breeze, while McDonnell Douglas used to design a very rigid wing that would not flex as much. You can design it both ways. There are trade-offs, and there are advantages to both ways.

Most buildings are designed to sway in the breeze. In fact, one of the big concerns in the early design of the World Trade Center, since it was going to be the tallest building in the world at the time, was that it not sway too much and make people sick. You can get seasick in one of these tall buildings from the wind loads. So they had to do some things to make them stiff enough that people wouldn't get sick, but not so rigid that it could snap if it got too big a load. If something's flexible, it can give; think of a willow tree. If you have a strong wind, you want the building, like the tree, to bend rather than break.

NOVA: Brian Clark http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/above.html one of only four people
(at least 18 survived from the impacted floors or above)


A significantly higher number than the number of passengers that survived, but I digress


to get out from above where United 175 hit the South Tower, says that when the plane struck, the building swayed for a full seven to 10 seconds in one direction before settling back, and he thought it was going over.

Eagar: That estimate of seven to ten seconds is probably correct, because often big buildings are designed to be stiff enough that the period to go one way and back the other way is 15 or 20 seconds, or even 30 seconds. That keeps people from getting sick.




Does PBS know you're stealing their images?

Caption: Upper floors pancaked down onto lower floors, causing a domino effect that left each building in ruins within ten seconds.


NOVA: The Twin Towers collapsed essentially straight down. Was there any chance they could have tipped over?

Eagar: It's really not possible in this case.

This statement by Eagar is utterly amazing. It is a wonder MIT has not fired him. Given that the south tower did in fact tip over (and quite visibly so). This shows Eagar's desperation. One thing is certain, all buildings, even the World Trade Center towers, will tip over if enough lateral (sideways) force is applied to them.



At best it 'tipped' 20 degrees, and it was in the process of dropping anyway. I'm pretty darn certain that Eagar and NOVA were thinking more of the 45 degree whole building going over version of tipping.

Hey, one other note, the images you're stealing are greatly simplified. The floors didn't drop like poker chips, at least not initially, they flopped down on one side first. The images were done so that way folks in Pawtucket understand what "pancacking" means, and because PBS is supported by viewers like me and doesn't want to spend the bucks required to show a more accurate collapse. (They'd have to show honeycombing effects and shifting that would occur as items and their associated mass slid toward the points of failure).

In our normal experience, we deal with small things, say, a glass of water, that might tip over, and we don't realize how far something has to tip proportional to its base. The base of the World Trade Center was 208 feet on a side, and that means it would have had to have tipped at least 100 feet to one side in order to move its center of gravity from the center of the building out beyond its base.


Yep. sure would, which means that if ten floors fail, it only needs to shift over around 10 feet per for the building's central core to buckle and.. Golly Gee Mr. Wizard!


The laws of physics do not change. The same laws of physics that tell you a glass of water will tip over, also tell you that (if enough lateral force is applied) large buildings like the World Trade Center towers, will in fact, tip over. You must ask yourself why Eagar chooses to lie about this (he certainly knows the physics, but chooses to tell the world a transparent lie).

What Eagar says about the center of gravity is true, however, it does not imply that the building would come straight down, so his statement is just another piece of misdirection. His implication is clearly wrong, as shown by the fact that the south tower did in fact tip over (videos of the south tower collapse clearly show that the top 30, or so, floors tipped over, but this section was being demolished as it fell, so after a few seconds it was reduced to rubble and no longer fell as a unit).



Wow. I was going to point out the fact that the building was in the process of collapsing because of the internal structural failure over stressing the central core, but you presented it right there for me. Thank You!




Picture of the World Trade Center south tower tipping over.
NOVA: Was there any chance they could have tipped over?
Eagar: It's really not possible in this case.


That would have been a tremendous amount of bending. In a building that is mostly air, as the World Trade Center was, there would have been buckling columns, and it would have come straight down before it ever tipped over. Have you ever seen the demolition of buildings? They blow them up, and they implode. Well, I once asked demolition experts, "How do you get it to implode and not fall outward?" They said, "Oh, it's really how you time and place the explosives." I always accepted that answer, until the World Trade Center, when I thought about it myself. And that's not the correct answer. The correct answer is, there's no other way for them to go but down. They're too big. With anything that massive -- each of the World Trade Center towers weighed half a million tons -- there's nothing that can exert a big enough force to push it sideways.

Eagar makes a real ass of himself in this article. To see how much of a fool Eagar is making of himself and his profession, think through the following thought experiment. Take the WTC and remove ten floors, but only say, the eastern half of each floor (so you have a situation analogous to a lumberjack cutting a slot half way through a tree), and imagine how the WTC (tree) would fall. One things for sure, it would not fall straight down. By Eagar's "logic" a tree that is extremely massive must fall down through itself, rather than tip over (because a tree is made of atoms and atoms are mostly empty space). What a dope.



yeah, unlike you, bucko.

Let's take your tree example. First, remove most of the wood. As Eagar points out (and you ignore) the WTC towers were hollow. The principle supporting structure for these sorts of things is the Central Core, and even that's hollow. Even better, here's an experiment you can try.

Go drain a can of your favorite beverage (or take one that's littering up the desktop). Make sure that there are no dents on the outside of it. Take it outside and place it on the ground. Carefully balance yourself atop of the can. (Mind you, if you're over 210lbs, you may want to have a thinner friend do it, and maybe stop drinking all those damn sodas too, while you're at it.) You'll notice that the hollow can is able to support your weight. I can usually bounce on the can once to get it to collapse, but if you've got fast enough reflexes, feel free to gently poke the side of the can with your finger or a stick. Or if you like, fire a BB pellet into the can to simulate the aircraft.

The can will collapse beneath you. Go ahead and examine it. And you'll note that it probably isn't lying on it's side, but more importantly, you're not either.

See, that's what Eagar is talking about when he says that buildings don't generally fall over when they collapse.

If you're looking for a nice counter point to this, consider that demolishing factory chimneys usually do require them falling over. This is because even though they're hollow, they are their own supporting structure, much like trees are. If you were to cleanly remove a section from the bottom, the top would simply drop right on top of it before gravity, impact damage and a whole host of other elements were to cause the top section to really "tip over" and fall off.

Heck, I'll even grant you a little slack on the lumberjack theory noting that the tipping occured toward the point of impact, where the floors gave way and the external skeleton support was damaged. Not away from the point of impact at the time of the airplane strike like you seem to want to believe, but hey, can't win 'em all.



Caption: Even traveling at hundreds of miles an hour, the planes that struck the World Trade Center did not have enough force to knock the towers over.



hmm... you're awfully quiet, monkeyboy.

NOVA: I think some people were surprised when they saw this massive 110-story building collapse into a rubble pile only a few stories tall.

Eagar: Well, like most buildings, the World Trade Center was mostly air. It looked like a huge building if you walked inside, but it was just like this room we're in. The walls are a very small fraction of the total room. The World Trade Center collapse proved that with a 110-story building, if 95 percent of it's air, as was the case here, you're only going to have about five stories of rubble at the bottom after it falls.


yeppers. awfully quiet.

NOVA: You've said that the fire is the most misunderstood part of the World Trade Center collapse. Why?

Eagar: The problem is that most people, even some engineers, talk about temperature and heat as if they're identical. In fact, scientifically, they're only related to each other. Temperature tells me the intensity of the heat -- is it 100 degrees, 200 degrees, 300 degrees? The heat tells me how big the thing is that gets hot. I mean, I could boil a cup of water to make a cup of tea, or I could boil ten gallons of water to cook a bunch of lobsters. So it takes a lot more energy to cook the lobsters -- heat is related to energy. That's the difference: We call the intensity of heat the temperature, and the amount of heat the energy.



Caption: Watch an animation of the Boeing 767 aircraft hitting the North Tower and the rapid spread of the resulting fireball through the building.


NOVA: So with the World Trade Center fire, the heat was much greater than might have been expected in a typical fire?

Eagar: Right. We had all this extra fuel from the aircraft. Now, there have been fires in skyscrapers before. The Hotel Meridien in Philadelphia had a fire, but it didn't do this kind of damage.

Eagar is referring to the One Meridian Plaza fire of February 23-24, 1991, which burnt for 19 hours. Strange how Eagar manages to "forget" the 1975 World Trade Center north tower fire. When he says "it (the One Meridian Plaza fire) didn't do this kind of damage" he means that One Meridian Plaza did not collapse. So here is another example (the first being the World Trade Center North Tower in 1975) of a skyscraper that endured much more serious fires than those of September 11, without collapsing. In fact, before September 11, no steel framed skyscraper had ever collapsed due to fire. However, on September 11, it is claimed that three steel framed skyscrapers (both towers and World Trade Center Seven) collapsed mainly, or totally, due to fire.



Sorry, wrong again.

He states that it wasn't fire alone that caused the problem. It wasn't the airplane hitting the building. It was the uneven thermal buckling that caused shearing stress to break the joists leading to the collapse. And he also notes that it wasn't the temperature, but the heat. And further clarifies this by stating that the heat was uneven.


The above graphic provides us with yet another example of misinformation. The World Trade Center towers were 208 feet wide. Hence, from the graphic we can calculate that the wingspan of the pictured plane is 224 feet, however the actual wingspan of a Boeing 767 is 156 feet. Every trick in the book must be tried to convince the gullible that the aircraft strikes plus fire bought down the towers, otherwise the true culprits behind 9-11 may be discovered.



You're saying that the real culprits were the makers of some 3-D clipart?

The real damage in the World Trade Center resulted from the size of the fire. Each floor was about an acre, and the fire covered the whole floor within a few seconds. Ordinarily, it would take a lot longer. If, say, I have an acre of property, and I start a brushfire in one corner, it might take an hour, even with a good wind, to go from one corner and start burning the other corner.

That's what the designers of the World Trade Center were designing for -- a fire that starts in a wastepaper basket, for instance. By the time it gets to the far corner of the building, it has already burned up all the fuel that was back at the point of origin. So the beams where it started have already started to cool down and regain their strength before you start to weaken the ones on the other side. On September 11th, the whole floor was damaged all at once, and that's really the cause of the World Trade Center collapse. There was so much fuel spread so quickly that the entire floor got weakened all at once, whereas in a normal fire, people should not think that if there's a fire in a high-rise building that the building will come crashing down. This was a very unusual situation, in which someone dumped 10,000 gallons of jet fuel in an instant.

There are a number of major problems with Eagar's claims.

(1) One complaint is that much of the jet fuel burnt outside the buildings. This was particularly true in the case of the south tower. After the impact nearly all of the jet fuel would have been spread throughout the area as a flammable mist. When this mist ignited it would have emptied the building of almost the entire fuel load, which then "exploded" outside the building. This is exactly what was seen in the videos of the impacts.


Provided that there weren't ignitable things like filing cabinets full of paper, carpeting, office furniture and people, I'm betting the fire would probably be a pretty non-issue. Also, I'd note that modern aircraft hold their fuel in the wings, there are two of them (just in case you're not paying attention). That means at minimum, you've still got something like 45,000 L of nice combustable fluid pouring through the building. 45,000 liters is a lot. To put it in terms you might be able to understand, its 24,500 big bottles of pepsi, or around 1000 cases, or what a Pepsi Delivery truck might be hauling around. It's also about the content of most tanker trucks you see driving around the freeways.

Yeah, I'm betting you'd get a good ol' fire off of that.


(2) If any quantity of liquid jet fuel did manage to accumulate in the building, then its volatility would lead to large amounts of it being evaporated and not burnt (pyrolysed) in the interior of the building. This evaporated fuel would burn on exiting the building, when it finally found sufficient oxygen.


Hey kids! It's time for more at home science!

This time, go find a charcoal grill starter, the chimney kind. Squirt a shot of lighter fluid into it and drop a match. (Mind you, this is not the way that you should use a chimney, but we're doing science here.) Give it a bit and notice that it quickly starts burning right along. Even though there's no air coming in from the sides. Why do you think that is kids? It's because of the magic of Convection. You see kids, hot air rises, and as a result it sucks colder air in through the bottom. This colder air fuels the fire and makes it hotter.


(3) The jet fuel fires were brief. Most of the jet fuel would have burnt off or evaporated within 30 seconds, and all of it within 2-3 minutes (if all 10,000 gallons of fuel were evenly spread across a single building floor as a pool, it would be consumed by fire in less than 5 minutes). The energy, from the jet fuel, not absorbed by the concrete and steel within this brief period, would have been vented to the outside world.


Nope, but them carpets, bookcases, filing cabinets and office supply closest full of paper make terrific sponges and wicks.

This means that the jet fuel fire did not heat the concrete slabs or fire protected steel appreciably. Large columns such as the core columns would also not heat appreciably, even if they had lost all their fire-protection. Unprotected trusses may have experienced a more sizeable temperature increase. The jet fuel fire was so brief that the concrete and steel simply could not absorb the heat fast enough, and consequently, most of the heat was lost to the atmosphere through the smoke plume.

(4) Even if the fire-rated suspended ceiling and the spray on fire-protection of the trusses was removed by the impacts and the trusses were heated till they had lost most of their room temperature strength, we know from the Cardington tests and real fires like Broadgate, that the relatively cold concrete slab will supply strength to the structural system, and collapse will not occur. Remember, that at Broadgate and Cardington, the beams/trusses were not fire-protected.[/font]

they also weren't bent/broken/missing from having an airplane whack into them.


(5) Since the jet fuel fire was brief, and the building still stood, we know that the composite floor slab survived and continued to function as designed (until the buildings were demolished one or two hours later). After the jet fuel fire was over, burning desks, books, plastic, carpets, etc, contributed to the fire. So now we have a typical office fire.

Well, a typical one that managed to engulf most of several floors in a matter of seconds. I'm also not buying the fact that it only took a few minutes to go through the equivalent of a tanker's worth of petrol. Even in an open, non saturated environment those things tend to burn for quite a while.

Plus, you're making the assumption that all the fuel magically sprung from the wings as soon at the plane hit.


The fact that the trusses received some advanced heating will be of little consequence. After some minutes the fires would have been indistinguishable from a typical office fire, and we know that the truss-slab combination will survive such fires, because they did so in the 1975 fire.


Dude, they buckled in both of those fires too. Come to think of it, if you were to pour out a tanker truck's fuel out into an open field it'd still take more than five minutes to burn out. Just going over accident reports show that and that's even if the fire crew happens to be working on the blaze with chemical fire retardants.

(6) Of course, most of the weight of the building was supported by the central core columns. Eagar doesn't bother to tell us how these 47 massive columns might have failed (at least in the case of the north tower, some of these columns, perhaps two or three, would have been displaced by the impacts). We know that the jet fuel fire was too brief to heat them appreciably. Since the central core area contained only lift shafts and stairwells, it contained very little flammable material. This meant that the core columns could only have been heated by the office fire burning in the adjacent region. Consequently, the core columns would have never got hot enough to fail. But we already know this because they did not fail in the 1975 WTC office fire.


Ok, now you're basing assertions on bad science and lack of proof. We don't know that the jet fuel fire was "too brief" because we have no proven numbers of how long it takes 45,000 liters of fuel to leak out of various storage compartments contained in a Boeing 757 wing based fuel tank, and burn off. We have a rough estimate (from your own opponent) that the temperatures of the fire were about what an office fire would be, but that the heat was far more intense. (Once again bright eyes, Heat does not equal Temperature)

(7) You should consider that it has been calculated that if the entire 10,000 gallons of jet fuel from the aircraft was injected into just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with the perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor and that no heat escaped this floor by conduction, then the jet fuel could have only raised the temperature of this floor to, at the very most, 536 degrees F (280 degrees C). You can find the calculation here http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/print.php?id=34507


Yep, I can also find it in Eagar's article. Nice to see you quoting him.

Of course I also see discussions in his article about thermal dynamics, metal softening, and other items that apparently confused you, but that's not my problem.


(8) Another reason that we know the fires were not serious enough to cause structural failure, is that witnesses tell us this. The impact floors of the south tower were 78-84. Here are a few words from some of the witnesses:

Stanley Praimnath was on the 81st floor of the south tower: The plane impacts. I try to get up and then I realize that I'm covered up to my shoulder in debris. And when I'm digging through under all this rubble, I can see the bottom wing starting to burn, and that wing is wedged 20 feet in my office doorway.

Donovan Cowan was in an open elevator at the 78th floor sky-lobby: We went into the elevator. As soon as I hit the button, that's when there was a big boom. We both got knocked down. I remember feeling this intense heat. The doors were still open. The heat lasted for maybe 15 to 20 seconds I guess. Then it stopped.

Ling Young was in her 78th floor office: Only in my area were people alive, and the people alive were from my office. I figured that out later because I sat around in there for 10 or 15 minutes. That's how I got so burned.

Eagar claims temperatures were hot enough to cause the trusses of the south tower to fail, but here we have eye-witnesses stating that temperatures were cool enough for them to walk away.


GAAH!! No you dope, he does NOT claim that the temperature was sufficient. He states very clearly that it was the HEATING that was the problem. You could have walked right through that fire and many folks thankfully did, but the heating, combined with the structural damages caused the failure.
NOVA: How high did the temperatures get, and what did that do to the steel columns?

Eagar: The maximum temperature would have been 1,600 degrees F or 1,700 degrees F.

It's impossible to generate temperatures much above that in most cases with just normal fuel, in pure air
("pure" air is only 21% oxygen).
In fact, I think the World Trade Center fire was probably only 1,200 degrees F or 1,300 degrees F.

Eagar randomly settles on a temperature between 1,200 degrees F to 1,300 degrees F. He does this so that his "estimate" would be higher than the first "critical" temperature for open web steel joists of 1,100 degrees F. He does not differentiate between atmospheric temperatures and steel temperatures. The critical temperature is defined as approximately the temperature where the steel has lost approximately 50 percent of its yield strength from that at room temperature. It turns out, that for composite steel structures, the first "critical" temperature, is not really that critical. Here are the critical temperatures adopted by the North American Test Standard (the ASTM E119 standard)


Type of Steel
Critical Temperature

Columns
1,000 degrees F (538 degrees C)

Beams
1,100 degrees F (593 degrees C)

Open Web Steel Joists
1,100 degrees F (593 degrees C)

Reinforcing Steel
1,100 degrees F (593 degrees C)

Prestressed Steel
800 degrees F (426 degrees C)


These critical temperatures are only part of the picture. If individual components are exposed to temperatures in excess of those quoted, then they may fail. However, these same components when incorporated in larger structures can be heated to much greater temperatures before failure occurs. The June 1990 Broadgate fire occurred in a high-rise while under construction. Consequently, little of the steel was fire protected. Even though the fire blazed for 4.5 hours, the building did not collapse and runaway type failures did not occur. To investigate the implications of the Broadgate fire on fire standards, the British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington on a simulated, eight-story building. Here is a quote from one of the research reports from these experiments.

Steel beams in standard fire tests reach a state of deflections and runaway well below temperatures achieved in real fires. In a composite steel frame structure these beams are designed to support the composite deck slab. It is therefore quite understandable that they are fire protected to avoid runaway failures. The fire at Broadgate showed that this (runaway failure) didn't actually happen in a real structure. Subsequently, six full-scale fire tests on a real composite frame structure at Cardington showed that despite large deflections of structural members affected by fire, runaway type failures did not occur in real frame structures when subjected to realistic fires in a variety of compartments. [2]



You know, It's getting pretty darn tiring beating this into your head.

the problem was that the steel was softened by temperature to a point where it was less structurally sound. In addition, the uneven heating of the fire imposed greater stresses on the flooring joists, causing the tonnage to exceed the support of the remaining structural elements. This caused the resulting failures, which added additional tonnage to the remaining structures which caused the collapse.

It wasn't just the fire.
It wasn't just the airplane.
It wasn't just the force of the impact or the resulting damage.

We know this because THE FRIGGING BUILDINGS STOOD FOR AS LONG AS THEY DID!

It was all of those elements wrapped up into one really bad ball.


Investigations of fires in other buildings with steel have shown that fires don't usually even melt the aluminum, which melts around 1,200 degrees F. Most fires don't get above 900 degrees F to 1,100 degrees F. The World Trade Center fire did melt some of the aluminum in the aircraft and hence it probably got to 1,300 degrees F or 1,400 degrees F.

This is almost certainly a lie. It is no surprise Eagar does not give a source for this information.



Oh, the bits of melted airplane one finds around airliner files must have planted by the firemen then.

But that's all it would have taken to trigger the collapse, according to my
"back of the envelope"
analysis.

NOVA: You've pointed out that structural steel loses about half its strength at 1,200 degrees F, yet even a 50 percent loss of strength is insufficient, by itself, to explain the collapse.

Eagar: Well, normally the biggest load on this building was the wind load
(actually the biggest load was the gravity load),
Wow, really? And to think you spent so much effort trying to point out how the building tipped. Talk about wasted effort, huh?
trying to push it sideways and make it vibrate like a flag in the breeze. The World Trade Center building was designed to withstand a hurricane of about 140 miles an hour, but September 11th wasn't a windy day, so the major loads it was designed for were not on it at the time.

As a result, the World Trade Center, at the time each airplane hit it, was only loaded to about 20 percent of its capacity. That means it had to lose five times its capacity either due to temperature or buckling -- the temperature weakening the steel, the buckling changing the strength of a member because it's bent rather than straight. You can't explain the collapse just in terms of temperature, and you can't explain it just in terms of buckling. It was a combination.

Eagar claims that the exterior columns buckled. The exterior columns were visible from outside the building. There was no visible evidence that these columns buckled before the collapse. There is also no visible evidence that these columns were very hot. Photographs of these columns in the debris heap, showed no indications of thermal buckling (I guess the conspirators will claim that the reason no photographs showed thermal buckling of the exterior columns, was that they made sure that such columns were the first to hauled away and melted down). Eagar jumps from buckled columns to buckled beams in a few more lines, mixing up the two as if they are essentially the same.



Granted, having an airplane shoved through them probably didn't help matters much. Oh, and yeah, I'm certain that with lessee, 110 stories * 8 (four sides *2) * 30 beams = 26,400 beams (a significant portion of which had several million tons of building collapse on top of them and then smolder for a week and a half, you're going to find the small percentage of the ones where the planes struck undamaged and take a picture of them.

yeah. uh-huh. right.


NOVA: So can you give a sequence of events that likely took place in the structural failure?

Eagar: Well, first you had the impact of the plane, of course, and then this spreading of the fireball all the way across within seconds. Then you had a hot fire, but it wasn't an absolutely uniform fire everywhere. You had a wind blowing, so the smoke was going one way more than another way,
(by the way, cross ventilation is known to cool a fire)
which means the heat was going one way more than another way. That caused some of the beams to distort, even at fairly low temperatures. You can permanently distort the beams with a temperature difference of only about 300 degrees F.

NOVA: You mean one part of a beam is 300 degrees F hotter than another part of the same beam?

Eagar: Exactly. If there was one part of the building in which a beam had a temperature difference of 300 degrees F, then that beam would have become permanently distorted at relatively low temperatures. So instead of being nice and straight, it had a gentle curve. If you press down on a soda straw, you know that if it's perfectly straight, it will support a lot more load than if you start to put a little sideways bend in it. That's what happened in terms of the beams. They were weakened because they were bent by the fire.

Eagar is, as usual, incorrect here. Buckling of beams does not necessarily lead to failure, in fact, in fires it is beneficial. For example, a laterally restrained beam (that will buckle at relatively low temperatures due to the lateral restraint) will not suffer runaway till around 900 degrees C, whereas, a simply supported beam carrying the same loads (that will not buckle) will suffer runaway at around 450 degrees C. So the beam that undergoes buckling is much preferred in a fire situation. Here are two more quotes from research papers examining the Cardington experiments.

In structures such as the composite steel frame at Cardington, the slab strongly restrains the thermal expansion strains and consequently develops large membrane compression and tension forces in the composite steel-concrete floor system. The membrane compressions can be limited by the large downward deflections which occur through thermo-mechanical post-buckling effects and thermal bowing (these are nonlinearly additive). The resulting behaviour is then a combination of displacement and force responses. The heated steel part of this composite system, if unprotected, rapidly reaches its axial capacity (through local buckling and strength degradation), and produces a beneficial effect by limiting and then reducing the total membrane compression, so allowing increased expansion of the steel through softening and ductility. This is clearly a desirable behaviour here, as it reduces the force imposed on the structure by the expansion forces and allows the damage to be localized. [3]

In composite floor slabs, buckling of the steel beams as a result of large compressions induced by restrained thermal expansions, is a positive event. The buckle allows the increase in length, as a result of thermal expansion, to be accommodated in downward deflections relieving axial compressions. [4]


So, in buildings comparable to the World Trade Center, buckling, paradoxically, has a beneficial effect.



Mr. Apple? Meet Mr. Orange. Without prior structural damage, yes, the fire alone would not be enough to bring the building down. Trusses would probably buckle putting greater strain on the angle clips holding the trusses to the exterior walls, but the interior load bearing beams would more than likely be able to compensate for that. Having a airliner forcefully inject itself into a building pretty much ruins a number of the interior load bearing supports increasing the sheer point for the clips. Having the trusses expand because of uneven heating worsens the problem.

But the steel still had plenty of strength, until it reached temperatures of 1,100 degrees F to 1,300 degrees F. In this range, the steel started losing a lot of strength, and the bending became greater. Eventually the steel lost 80 percent of its strength, because of this fire that consumed the whole floor. If it had only occurred in one little corner, such as a trashcan caught on fire, you might have had to repair that corner, but the whole building wouldn't have come crashing down. The problem was, it was such a widely distributed fire, and then you got this domino effect. Once you started to get angle clips to fail in one area, it put extra load on other angle clips, and then it unzipped around the building on that floor in a matter of seconds.

NOVA: Many other engineers also feel the weak link was these angle clips, which held the floor trusses between the inner core of columns and the exterior columns. Is that simply because they were much smaller pieces of steel?

Eagar: Exactly. That's the easiest way to look at it. If you look at the whole structure, they are the smallest piece of steel. As everything begins to distort, the smallest piece is going to become the weak link in the chain. They were plenty strong for holding up one truss, but when you lost several trusses, the trusses adjacent to those had to hold two or three times what they were expected to hold.

More crap from Eagar. Does he really believe that the towers were only held together with a couple of rivets and duct tape. Here is a quote from the FEMA report into the WTC collapse (Chapter 2).

Pairs of flat bars extended diagonally from the exterior wall to the top chord of adjacent trusses. These diagonal flat bars, which were typically provided with shear studs, provided horizontal shear transfer between the floor slab and exterior wall, as well as out-of-plane bracing for perimeter columns not directly supporting floor trusses.

Eagar claims that the trusses were connected to the perimeter wall only by what he calls, "angle clips". The truth is that every 160 inches, the perimeter wall was solidly attached to a 24 x 18 inch metal plate that was covered with shear studs and set in the concrete slab. In addition a pair of 6 foot long, flat, steel bars lined with shear studs were welded to the plate and to the top chord of the adjacent trusses. These bars were also set in the concrete slab. Between these plates similar pairs of 6 foot long, flat, steel bars connected directly to tabs on the perimeter columns. So these features, as well as the angle clips, connected the perimeter wall to the concrete slab and hence to the rest of the building. Below, is a picture of these plates and steel bars before the concrete slab was poured. The plates are the dark rectangular objects along the perimeter wall. The steel bars are the V-like features





Sure as hell look like angle clips to me. Remember Big Things do not act like Little Things. In this case, you're right. those clips are well able to support more than their fair share of load. But each one's not going to hold up the whole floor by itself. If enough fail, then they all fail.


Those angle clips probably had two or three or four times the strength that they originally needed. They didn't have the same factor-of-five safety as the columns did, but they still had plenty of safety factor to have people and equipment on those floors. It was not that the angle clips were inadequately designed; it was just that there were so many of them that the engineers were able to design them with less safety factor. In a very unusual loading situation like this, they became the weak link.

NOVA: I've read that the collapse was a near free-fall.

Eagar: Yes. That's because the forces, it's been estimated, were anywhere from 10 to 100 times greater than an individual floor could support. First of all, you had 10 or 20 floors above that came crashing down. That's about 10 or 20 times the weight you'd ever expect on one angle clip. There's also the impact force, that is, if something hits very hard, there's a bigger force than if you lower it down very gently.

Here is an article that has been posted at various sites on the internet.

All that one needs to know, to be able to conclusively prove that the Twin Towers were demolished, is that the towers fell in roughly 10 seconds, that is, that they fell at about the same rate that an object falls through air.

Anyone with a little common sense will realize that the top of a building does not pass through the concrete and steel that comprises the lower portion of the building at the same rate that it falls through air. This just doesn't happen, unless, of course, the lower part of the building has lost its structural integrity (and this is usually due to the detonation of a multitude of small explosive charges as seen in controlled demolitions).


Well, it does if what it's falling through is basically air AS THEY KEEP SAYING IN THE ARTICLE!
Plus you've got the fact that the floors beneath it are falling too, clearing the way, so to speak.

Plus, let's remember, It's a big building. Big buildings are heavy. REALLY heavy. Far more heavy than you on that soda can a while ago, but effectively the same idea. A few layers of rapidly compressing multiton concrete which is making it's own rapid decent wouldn't slow you down, particularly when you outmass their support weight by a few thousand factors.

The fact that the towers collapsed in about 10 seconds is a statement that the upper portion of each of the towers passed through the lower portion at about the same rate that it would have fallen through air. The fact that the towers fell this quickly (essentially at the rate of free-fall) is conclusive evidence that they were deliberately demolished.

Believing that there is nothing wrong with the towers collapsing so quickly, is roughly analogous to believing that people pass through closed doors as quickly as they pass through open doors.


They do if they outmass the door by a factor of 100 or so. They also do if the door was in the process of going the same way they were.

I'm skipping the rest of the article and the "ahem" dissection because it's late and I've made my point.

In case anyone else is curious, the supposed true destroyers of the World Trade Center were the CIA and other super Skirret Organizations bent on hellificare. They somehow managed to rig the building for explosives, fly the airplanes in using radio control and, I dunno, resurrect Billy Beer sales on Pluto.

The detail that not one of the passengers of any of the flights survived and that there was one aircraft that failed to meet it's mark, had conversations with love ones and crash in Pennsylvania is generally ignored by them.

Apparently, none of these folks have ever heard of Occam, his razor or even bothered with staying awake in science class. Certainly they never took a debate class or analytical thinking class.

Are there conspiracies out there? Yep. You bet.

Were there even some related to the events of 9-11?

Yessiree, Bob.

But the fact of the matter is that destruction of the Worlds Trade Center Towers was as tragic as it was real. I'm betting that if the architects could go back in time thirty years and use what they know now, they would, and they'd even pay for it out of their own pockets. Or they wouldn't let the buildings be built.

Just in case you're curious, Occam's Razor stipulates that one should not increase, beyond what is neccessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.

Involving secret government janitorial demolition experts, pretty much fails the Razor.

The truth is out there.

And it's laughing at you.